Jeff Corrigan: welcome back to Habit Masters.
I'm Jeff. I'm Sheldon, and today we have a very special guest in Jeremy Utley. Who's that you ask? Well, he is the co-author of one of my new favorite books, idea Flow. he is the director of executive education at the D School at Stanford University. Also an adjunct professor there where he has earned multiple favorite professor distinctions from graduate programs.
And you're gonna find out why, because he's an awesome guy and he's got so many ideas on how to. Build a skill of creative problem solving in your life. I've talked about this as maybe the most important skill next to habit building itself. It has become my new obsession and passion. You'll hear that in my voice as we talk to Jeremy .
He's gonna give you all kinds of tools to start solving problems better in your life. This is episode
Sheldon Mills: 99, folks.
Jeff Corrigan: Yes. We're almost to a hundred. Thank you for listening, all of you. Next is episode 100, and we have a really special one ready for you. That's gonna be amazing. Without further ado, we introduce Jeremy Utley.
Sheldon Mills: hey, hey.
Jeff Corrigan: How's it going?
I'm good, how are you? We're doing so well, man. Thanks for joining us. .
Jeremy Utley: Yeah, my pleasure.
It's good to be with you guys.
Jeff Corrigan: He apologies. My, my voice is really crazy to, I've been like sick all weekend, I'm better, but my voice is gone. So I sound kind of weird.
But other than that, we're
Jeremy Utley: good . Love it. Love it. All good.
Jeff Corrigan: You know, I reached out to you on LinkedIn just cuz , I'm obsessed with your book, man. This is like .
Jeremy Utley: It's a huge compliment. Thank you. I love obsessive readers. ,
Sheldon Mills: , Jeff Got it.
Been loving it, been sharing tons of stuff with me. So I've, I've got it in my audible on cue, but I promised myself I've had to finish at least one of the other seven books I'm working on before I could start another one. So, man, I feel like I kind of know it, how much he talks about it though,
Jeremy Utley: so , right.
That's great. That's great.
Jeff Corrigan: My third time through it listening, I'm just like, all right. Gotta really master these. I bought the physical, the digital, and the audible. Oh, that's how you know when
Sheldon Mills: Jeff straight, when he buys, buys it all.
Jeff Corrigan: He's very, all
Jeremy Utley: three very serious. You know, you should get, yeah, there's a four pack, if you haven't seen the four pack
I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
Jeff Corrigan: He's like, there's another one out there. You got this . Cool.
Very cool. So, I guess really the question comes down to, like, did you do accounting?
Is that right?
Jeremy Utley: Yeah, finance. Yeah, I studied finance and undergrad and was good at it, but I hated it. And you know, but I didn't think there was anything to that. I thought you, you always hated what you did. That's why they call it work, right? Yeah. And I had never heard of anything different. It wasn't until I was in business school actually at Stanford, you know, several years later after, you know, kind of fault, somewhat faulty at Investment management and strategy consulting.
And when I was in business school, I actually was working at a startup in India, in Del India and got exposed to design there. And
Jeff Corrigan: when before you go on, like explain people what design is, cuz they, you know, I've had people ask like, what's the design school? They call it the D School for short at Stanford, right?
That's right. Yeah. And so what, what is, what do they mean by design though? Because it's not what people typically think of.
Jeremy Utley: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, design, broadly speaking, being an approach to problems, you know, a, a human-centered, prototype driven you know, inspiration seeking kind of approach to problems is how I would think about design.
Okay. So, borrowing from kinda a classic designer's toolkit where you're, you know, you're radically focused on the people you're trying to serve. You're creating prototypes, whether it's, you know, physical or experiential interactions. In order to kinda learn about what you're trying to do, you're generating loads of options.
You're seeking a lot of different input to your thought process. But basically, like, if you blur your feet and look at, you know, 50,000 feet, a designer is someone who's trying to come up with idea.
Jeff Corrigan: Love it. That's that's fantastic. And, and so, I'm sorry, you were talking about, and you were in India and I, I cut
Jeremy Utley: you off
No, no, no. Yeah. I was in India. I was working at a, at a startup there that had actually come out of the design school and I was doing business development and things like that. And, Was really taken by the designers that I saw. I mean, they're designing products down the, down the hallway and, you know, going and living in the slums and living among people who are, who were trying to serve, who you know, who lived off the grid, off the electrical grid, who were burning kerosene in their homes, which is very dangerous.
And not only because of carcinogens, but also because of fire hazards. Yeah. And we were trying to design solutions for them. And that was, you know, design was probably, I thought about it probably as kind of a classic kind of aesthetic consideration, you know, color and things like that. Yeah. Where it Right.
A very narrow definition as kind of a finance guy. But I started looking at how they were approaching problems and how they're approaching product development and strategy. And I was just fascinated. And so I found myself poking my head in quite a bit, asking questions and they, they started saying, you know, you're kind of d schooly
They didn't mean that, they didn't mean that as a. as an insult. , they meant on that. And basically what they meant was that my people were over at this institute called the D School. That's like the, that those are my people, and I didn't know it. Yeah. And and so when I came back to the business school, or when I came back to Stanford in the fall, this fall 2008 I just started taking as many classes as I could at the D school.
And I was blown away by an approach to problem solving that that felt very natural and intuitive to me, and yet was not something I had been taught. And. It was invigorating and I found something that was challenging and rigorous and all that, but I, that I really enjoyed. And that was just that was a total game changer for me was to realize there could be work that was difficult and yet incredibly meaningful and invigorating.
And so that was y you know, through, call it 2009 was that eye-opening series of experiences and it culminated on my being invited to be kind of a one year. Faculty in training through what's called the Design Fellows program. And between 2009, 2010, I was called upon to teach courses and to design programs, not only for, you know, undergrads and grad students, but for doctors and biomedical engineers, and the Gates Foundation and the Hewlett Foundation and Fidelity and all, you know, all sorts of different places.
And, and I was learning, you know, I, my joke is I've been learning in public for a long time now, you know
Jeff Corrigan: the best way in my
Jeremy Utley: opinion, It is. No, it is. Yeah. And so it's, you know, 13 years later, I'm, I'm privileged to still continue to be a part of the program and taking different roles and responsibilities along the way and created different programs and different courses.
But the thread kind of throughout all of it is this addiction to the epiphany, you know, this kind of sense. Wow. Where did that idea come from? Like that is so invigorating, and being able to give other people that experience has been a really transformative part of my life.
Jeff Corrigan: Well, you may have just pinpointed one of my favorite parts of life with your epiphany moment.
Right? , it explains so much about why I love brainstorming all of it, right? It's like I could just get me, get me a whiteboard and group of people. We're gone, right? We're going for it. I've always felt like a fairly creative person. And then I got your book and I was like, I've been doing this wrong, right?
Like, that was my, that was my epiphany after reading your book. Cuz I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I always thought I was a pretty like, great idea guy. And then I realized your book and thought I've been doing this the wrong way all these years, . It was. You , took all these pieces of this puzzle in my brain of like, creativity and put 'em together.
And I was like, oh my gosh, this totally makes sense now. So it's been super fun reading it, absorbing it and, and really trying to figure out how to put it into practice. Cuz I, I run a business with my brother. Hmm. So a little background with us, like Sheldon and I run the podcast together. We've also done several different entrepreneurial ventures along the way.
Some successful others not Right. , it's always the case. It's like many, many different versions until we landed on this where we're just like, you know, the thing we really love. It's kinda like you discovered. It's like, well, work can be fun when you love what you do, you know? Yeah. And we're just super passionate about talking about ideas and helping people.
Build habits and routines that move them towards their dream. So that's the core purpose of, like our podcast, is to help people learn the tools that can move them in the direction of their dreams and idea flow For me, outside of habit building itself, which is such a vital part and vital skill that people really lack, right?
They, they do it all the time, but they don't have like a system for it, right. Haphazard a yeah. Right. It's just like they kind of go through and so they know all these tools. They just haven't put them in a line like you've done with idea flaws. Similar idea. And so I loved it when this came along because this approach to creative problem solving is, Super comprehensive.
I'm, I'm, I'm like gushing, right? That I'm getting to talk to you, first of all. It's really cool. But no, it's a, it's
Jeremy Utley: an honor. Likewise. It's reciprocal. There's reciprocal gushing. Don't worry, don't worry, . Well, I'm gonna, by the way, I hear that a lot, Jeff. I mean, you know the number of people who go, you know, it's as if you know, like, you know, I don't have the book sitting here, but I do have of course, a roll of duct tape and it's like, you know, somebody holds up the book, they.
See, I, there you go. You got it. I'm not crazy. these guys from Stanford say, you know, and it's, it's as if there's there, you know, our people are basically people out there who've got this kind of patchwork you know, cobbled together, set of creative practices that they think are weird or they've gotta apologize for.
And then we, you know, we put 'em together into the system and idea flow, and they go, that's what I, I thought I was crazy. You know, see mom kind of a thing. So see Mom.
Jeff Corrigan: I love that. Yeah. We hear that. C Mom. Yeah. Well, I,
Sheldon Mills: go ahead Sean. I, I wanna stop you guys because I've, again, Jeff's talked to me a lot about it, but as of yet, we've talked a lot about the idea of I idea flow with that actually saying what is idea flow in this process of creativity, for our listen.
Yes, Jeremy. I should say. Jeremy, can you kind of like give it, you know, how does, like on your website demystifying the art of, in science of creativity, innovation, and entrepreneurship, is that idea flow?
Jeremy Utley: That's too complicated. idea flow is just, it's, it's how many solutions you can generate to a problem in a given amount of time, very simply.
Okay. And, and the more, the better and how exactly. Right. That's, that's the point, right? If you can get somebody to realize more solutions are better. Mm-hmm. . Than almost everything that is the, that's the tip that pulls everything along well. How do I generate more solutions and what do I do once I have more solutions?
And, you know, all of that kind of follows. But the basic premise and the thing that's fascinating, just Sheldon, just to catch you up on, you know, the last 60 years of cognitive science here is we've known for a long time that the. Predictor of the quality of one's ideas is actually the quantity of their ideas.
Mm-hmm. . And so if you want better ideas, you actually need to be generating more. We've known that for a long time. And more recently, you know, our colleague at Stanford, Bob Sutton, pioneered some great research with his PhD candidate, Andy Hargodon, back in the day where he studied in innovation firms and realize the number of ideas they need to have to get a commercial breakthrough are in the thousands, not in the tens, and not in the hundreds, but in the thousands.
And, and we've known that, we've shown that data, but no one's ever said, well, how are we optimizing for that kind of volume? How are we orienting ourselves? How are we operationalizing the, the, even just considered the, the volume of input required to deliver that kind of conceptual output. Right. How do you do that?
Right. And so idea flow is an attempt at describing what's a personal system and practice and routine around gen generating. The, the volume of outputs that are required to break through.
Jeff Corrigan: See, I love it. And, and it really, it really is cuz of, of all the books I've read, right, and, and there's been a lot of 'em on creativity and, and problem solving in habits and all the stuff that we, we like to read.
This one's the most comprehensive of, of that realm, right? Of this creative problem solving. And the thing that was broken for me in my process that you guys pointed out so early on in the book, and I was just like, what? It was like this giant light bulb went off right in my head. Maybe all the light bulb ,
Jeremy Utley: I'm dying.
I'm dying to know, I'm dying to, I was
Jeff Corrigan: the, this, the light bulb that went off for me was that I, I have been judging my ideas far too early in the process, right? I've, I try to refine and perfect and, and, and you go just far too far down the road with an idea before you even have enough. To know what's, what's what, right.
Or, or to even give it a shot. So that, was so vital for me and it seems like something I should have thought of, you know, years ago. And that's always how it feels. Like when someone sh show you like, yeah, duh. Right. You slap yourself the forehead. Like, that seems so obvious now. Right, right, right.
Totally. But yeah, so that's, that's been really cool as I've shared it with people. Right. So I've given the book to several of my staff. I've, I've got my, my ace team working with me on like, we're implementing idea flow to the EMP degree. But I want our listeners to hear it from, from you but like, like I said, hey, this is the most vital skill you can have since habit formation itself. Right? That's kind of my tagline for this is like, idea flow guys, I'm selling this hard, my sister and all the coworkers, team members at my store, like laughing at me every time I bring it up to someone now.
But what would you say, so you go into it like, I really like this idea cuz I've been trying to like, implement it with my team. I know you've done a lot of these workshops and you've gone in with, with board meetings and things and got them all on board with like, here's idea flow, you and Perry or, or whatever team you go in with, what's like the workflow for you guys?
How do you get people in the mindset of, okay, we're gonna learn how to do this and get started in this realm. ,
Jeremy Utley: There's a handful of ways to think about it. One is you've got top down, you know, and there are certain conditions you can almost think about them as environmental conditions that are necessary and important.
But just because you're not the c e o doesn't mean you can't do anything. Right? And so then there's also kind of bottom up stuff. Mm-hmm. . And depending on where we're brought in, I think that affects our approach. Quite a lot. But if you just start from nothing, what you want is you want folks to be.
in the habit of, of noticing problems. Mm-hmm. , one of the simplest things you can do is keep a bug list. Right. That's one thing we talk about in the book, and that's long before computer programming entered common parlance. Right. What we mean is it's a assignment from the 1960s from Stanford. It's keep a list of things that bug you and, you know, you hear people say, you know, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions.
And I would say those, those people are not, they're not ushering in breakthroughs for sure. Because an innovator loves problems. And an innovative leader loves people bringing them problems. I mean, and hopefully solutions too, but mm-hmm. notion that I don't like problems or I don't wanna hear about problems.
I mean, certainly I understand. Don't complain, don't gripe. But. But actually it's a really valuable skill to be on the lookout for problems to be solved and to be observant and aware and in touch with customers and suppliers. And employees and stakeholders. Right. Cultivating an awareness of problems to be solved is kind of the necessary precondition to generating solutions.
Right. You know? Yeah. By saying, come up with a solution. You know, you both go to what problem, right? To what? Yeah. , yeah. Like there's no such thing as a solution where there's no problem, but then when you start to cultivate an awareness to problems, there's loads of opportunities. And when you then kind of, you know, compound that by realizing the way, there's a lot of ways to express any given problem.
Mm-hmm. a lot of different angles and perspectives on any given problem. Right. Then you are gonna start to think about how do you tackle it? Right. And whose perspective are you taking and, and what is the kinda outcome variable that you're measuring? What are you trying to, how are you trying to move the needle?
Right? Yeah. So I talked to you, for example, a restaurant. A restaurant on tour, who's talking about whether merchandise is a good idea in the store. Mm-hmm. like, well, relative to what? Is merchandise a good idea? I mean, I don't know. Like what? And if you say, okay, well people are walking away, if they learn that there's more than a 30 minute wait, they leave.
Right. Okay. So the problem to be solved is you want to keep people in the shop instead of leaving. Now is merchandise a good. . Well, let's see, let's, let's compare you know, the walkaway rate. Mm-hmm. with a, a store that's got merchandise and let's compare that with you know, a discount on appetizers.
But, and then we're clear, right? That, that in all of these suite of experiments, what we're trying to figure out is what reduces the walkaway rate. Right? Well, that's the problem to be solved. Yeah. So is merchandise a good idea? Is like, it's a terrible question. I don't know. You know well, are people cold?
You know, that's a totally different problem, right? Right. Yeah. But the point is, if you become aware of problems to be solved, then all of a sudden you start, like the, the thing's amazing about the weight problem is there's a million ways to solve that. We could have games in the lobby. We could have people like, you know, betting on, on, on sports that are on the tv in the bar.
We, you know, We can generate tons of ways when we're clear on what problem we're trying to solve. Yeah. And when you ignite a group of people with an awareness of problems to be solved, then you're kind of seeding the soil with the necessary pre-condition to generating solutions. The other, and I would say just like on, on the totally other end of the spectrum, but for me, it was triggered by this idea of pre-conditions on the totally other end of the spectrum.
Yeah. I don't know if it's organizational or cognitive. I don't even know where to put it. Like you map the spectrum. I don't even know what the spectrum is, but if you think about like a, kind of a, a cognitive model for creativity. Mm-hmm. is What's known as preparation, incubation, illumination verification.
That's kind of a very standard psychological model. You become a wherever problem, you kinda marinate on it and you gest date, then you have illumination. Is the light bulb moment the the light bulb that I see in your background? Yes. The reason that's associated with ideas is because of the cognitive model of illumination.
Mm-hmm. , that's so, that's where light bulb comes from. Right. And then you've. verification, which is like proving, oh, that actually works. Right? Well, I, and what triggered this, you know, other end of the spectrum or new dimension, you know, kind of tangent in my mind was, I said, necessary precondition. And if you think about that cognitive model, you know, I said the necessary precondition to a solution is a problem, right?
That's one. Mm-hmm. . But the other, which is kind of in the preparation stage, the other necessary precondition to a solution is incubation. It's time considering the thing. And in in our world where we've got so much, you know, emphasis on productivity and efficiency, my observation is incubation gets a short shrift.
You know, we don't actually give people time to consider. And one of my favorite studies of creativity, the last, you know, a hundred years Yeah. Is from this world War II Spymaster named Donald McKinnon. I don't know if we were able to write about it in the book. We, we, the thing that's interesting about a book by that doesn't sound familiar,
So a book, a book is this like static piece of, it's like a snapshot of someone's knowledge. But, you know, the thing that's weird about my, what's different about, you know, for people who can see a video right in the background, you've got my book and then you've got my head. What's the difference? That is static.
This is still moving through time and space, acquiring new information. Right. And while that can't be updated, you know, except in second edition or whatever, this is constantly being updated. And I find, by the way, guys, the stories I'm telling right now aren't in the book
Jeff Corrigan: because I keep learning it.
That's good. We love
Jeremy Utley: more stories. But, but one of the, one of the, so, so you'll love this Jeff. This is like an appendix to to idea flow and so you're getting like the bonus chapter, but nice. One of the greatest. Studies of creativity is conducted by this spy master named Donald McKinnon. And what he did was he wanted to understand, after the war, he became obsessed with this question of kind of productive creativity, not just frivolous artistic creativity, which yeah, what spy master has time for frivolity, right?
But he wanted to know what makes for meaningful, kind of, you know, pragmatic, effective creativity. And what he did was he studied architects. And he said, okay, they, because they have this balance, so to speak, between aesthetic considerations, but also seismic gravitational forces. Right. Right. So he can't just look nice.
It's gotta really work. And so he wanted Yeah. Form and function. Right. You're talking thought they were the perfect example of like the kind of creativity he wanted to study. So what he did is he conducted this longitudinal anthropological study where he dove deep with who everyone considered. He actually surveyed all living architects at the time, and he figured out who were the most imminent practitioners of the field.
And he did anthropological studies with them. He did ethnographic morning to night, Don to dusk time with them. And then ostensibly, he didn't tell the other folks he'd spend time with people who weren't on the shortlist. , I assume he didn't tell them. He's like, just so you know, I'm studying you as the what not to do.
Right. . But he, but he studied them and what he found was two big differences. I dunno if you have any, do you have any guesses on what the two big differences were?
Jeff Corrigan: Hmm. Awareness. What do you think? Sheldon?
Sheldon Mills: Cultivating awareness of problems. .
Jeremy Utley: I dunno. No, it's good. I mean, I mean, by the way, as like a great hack, and this is like to anybody who's thinking about going to business school, I'll give you a great hack.
If you're ever in a class and you get cold, cold and you wonder what the answer is, look at the syllabus and see what the topic of the class is. dances are. That's the end. .
Jeff Corrigan: So what's
Jeremy Utley: it, so what's interesting is what's fascinating to this discussion is the observable behavior was they delayed decisions. The most spectacular architects took longer to decide. Really. And, and what McKinnon found was they opened themselves up to new input and new ideas, new information by not deciding on the form or the design or whatever.
Right? So they're
Jeff Corrigan: letting it percolate
Jeremy Utley: a little in their . Going back to this idea of incubation, right? Yes. Yeah. And if you think about problem solving, and especially creativity and breakthrough thinking as a effectively a question of problem solving, what you need is you need to give yourself time to consider the problem.
And going back to this question of what, where do you start? You asked me, where do you start? Well, one thing is an awareness of problems. The other thing is, does anybody have any time , does anybody have any ability to consider a problem? If not, forget about it. You know? And to, in today's day and age, right, where this kind of ever increasing efficiency and productivity emphasis.
Mm-hmm. , if you were to see, if you were to go on a college campus, And you see two young men just walking strolling, you know, moseying, not even walking, walking implies purpose. They were moseying laughing. What would you say? You'd say they're not working. You know, and what if I told you that they're actually Danny Kahneman and Amos Turski, reinventing, reinventing the field of psychology and economics as we know it.
That's a true story. They were known for taking these long ambling laughing walks. Mm-hmm. . And yet when Amo Turski was, was asked, how did you and Kahneman devise such incredible experiments that redefined our understanding of psychology. This is what Amos Turski said. He said, the secret to doing good research and you could replace the word research with work, I think is to always be a little underemployed.
You waste, you waste years by not being able to waste hours. And I think there's something very profound there that. He realized the great ideas came to them in the context of a relationship and the context of these walks. Not by sitting focusing harder, but by working differently. And I think increasingly we need permission to work differently.
We need language to work differently. Those are kind of initial conditions, I'd say for if you want a practice of idea flow to really thrive, you need some of those initial conditions.
Jeff Corrigan: That's perfect. So with with, with that, I love this. Right? And that, that really stood out to me, that quote in the book too, because I've always kind of, you know, we're so trained to be productive and efficient and all these things that you just feel guilty every time You're not totally according to the rules, accomplishing something.
Right. Right. And. So I love that aspect of it because that's really how I work anyways. Like my brothers have always made fun of me because I like, I'm kind of slow about stuff. And my wife, she does too. Like anything I do, I'm like meticulously doing it and kind of just slowly . I get it from my dad. It's just
Jeremy Utley: built in.
Right. , don't apologize, don't apologize. But,
Jeff Corrigan: but so to that point though, what, what do you guys do to kind of combat the, like the schooling and all of, all of what has been ingrained in us since childhood to be efficient. Because I think that's been my trouble with my team is I'll get into this room with my core people and say, hey, We're gonna have an idea session, and then they always just start to, and I know it takes training and practice, right?
Which is what we're working on. But what do you guys do to combat that from your approach is like, Hey, you guys are gonna have this mentality that immediately you want to come up with a solution and go down that road,
Jeremy Utley: right? Right, right. Well, I mean, the thing is people don't believe it till they see it.
Right? So how can we give them an experience that illustrates the point, right? So like, classic example, something very easy to do is you say, okay, everybody think of a problem you're trying to solve right now. , right? And you give people time. I actually have a chat bot I can share with you. People can do this on their own cuz I do it myself, right?
And I need kind of external, I, the, the facilitator needs facilitation, right? So I, I, I use a chatbot myself, but you say, okay, what's the problem you're trying to solve right now? And then you go, okay, great. What's the obvious answer? What's the thing that you probably will do? You know, like, what's in your mind?
This is the right answer. Great. Now just humor me for a minute. I'm gonna rapid fire, ask you a series of questions. Yeah. And if you're a listener, you can just do this right now. So write down what your question is. Push pause, you know, until you get your question. And then write down what's your obvious answer, you know, and then push, pause, write down, you know, by the way, these pauses should take like 10 seconds.
Right? Right. And then, and then you say, okay, next question. What's the opposite of that obvious answer? Total opposite. Then you say, wait, but that's a stupid idea. I don't care. Write it down. No problem. Okay. , wait. Okay. Does that make you think of anything? Write it down if it makes you think of something.
Okay, great. Next question. What's your favorite tech company? Okay. How, how would Amazon solve the problem? How would Apple solve the problem? How would Salesforce solve the problem? Okay, great. What's your favorite restaurant? Okay. How would Chick-fil-A solve the problem? . How would, how would went to Chick-Fil-A Olive Garden solve the problem?
You know how, I mean, that's mine, right? Okay. What's your, what's your favorite celebrity? How would you know Beyonce solve the problem? How would Taylor Swift solve the problem? Who's your favorite athlete? Who's your favorite celebrity? You see what I'm doing right? I'm just mashing up. Arthur Kessler said, creativity is the collision of apparently unrelated frames of reference.
And all I'm doing is I'm forcing some collisions here, right? But then, and used to, oh, hey, who's your best friend from high school? What would they tell you to do? . Hey, if you, if, if you could break the law and you wouldn't be punished, what would you do? Okay. Does that make you think of something? That's reasonable.
Right? And so, and now I go, okay, great. We just, you just wrote down, if you push pause in the podcast or in in the room, you just wrote down 11 different potential solutions. Some of 'em are absurd, some of 'em are wacky, but there's a couple you go that's kinda interesting. Now I'm gonna ask you a question.
Circle your, the idea that you think you should try, and then you just get a show of hands. How many of you circled the first idea? All of them. . Exceptional. None of few. None. Exceptionally few. Oh really? That's awesome. And I go, wait, okay. So 10 minutes ago you all had a problem and you had what you thought was the right answer.
And with 10 minutes of wacky prompts, you came up with a better answer. That's interesting. What do you think would happen if we, if we took 10 more minutes, right? What do you think would happen if we took 10 minutes to maybe focus on the same problem together? There's a series of like very simple exercises.
You know, another one of my favorites from my buddy Dan Klein, who's the head of the Stanford Improvisers, he does a great activity called Oh good. Where you give, everybody gets a gift, right? I did this the other, I was at a conference in Georgia last week. We did, it was super fun, but nice. Basically you have people say, oh good, you know, you get a gift.
So here, we'll do this right now. Okay? This just real time. If you're a list, you're hearing Jeff and Sheldon get their minds blown. Okay? But, so we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it together so you guys find a gift in your nearby vicinity, okay? Something that you can give to me or to one another.
Jeff Corrigan: Okay? I got.
Jeremy Utley: Got it. Okay. So, so now here's the rule. We're gonna give each other gifts, and then the only rule is when you receive the gift, you have to say, oh, good. And then say why it's like the thing that you were wanting. So Jeff, give me a gift first.
Jeff Corrigan: Okay. Here's this. Yo-yo.
Jeremy Utley: Oh, good. I was looking for something to get like mindless distraction while I was thinking about a problem later.
That's awesome. Thanks so much. Hey Sheldon, I've got these Batman sunglasses that I bought at a convenience store, .
Sheldon Mills: Oh, good. Mine are broken and I need into some, some awesome shades for my next trip.
Jeremy Utley: Excellent. Now, now Sheldon, give Jeff a gift. I'm
Sheldon Mills: gonna give you this fidget toy that my, my son T 3D printed.
Jeff Corrigan: Oh, good. That way I can switch out my pen for something more exciting. to fidget with.
Jeremy Utley: Wow. Okay. Okay. Now, so, so we could, we could talk about that, but let's just stop there. And now what I want you to is look for something on your desk or in your nearby vicinity that's objectively not good. That's bad, or that's like, that's, that's not desirable.
You got it. ? Yeah. Okay. So now we're gonna give each other gifts and here's the rules. Okay. So it's a little bit different this time. Now we're gonna give each other a gift. We'll go in the same order. And what, when you, when you receive the gift, what I want you to do is say, oh, good. And then say why it's the exact thing that you were wanting.
Notice the rules are no different. Okay. . So, so Jeff, give me a gift. Here
Jeff Corrigan: is my used napkin here, .
Jeremy Utley: Oh good. My my computer screen is kinda wobbly and I need something to put underneath it to just to, to stabilize it a little bit. Let's see Sheldon, I've got this pencil whose eraser has been worn down to a nub.
Sheldon Mills: Oh good. I need something to whittle with .
Jeremy Utley: Oh, okay. Very good. Now you give, you give Jeff one. Oh,
Sheldon Mills: I feel bad cuz it's almost the same. I was gonna give you this pencil that my son's chewed on, so there's bite marks all over it, Jeff.
Jeff Corrigan: Oh, good. I actually don't have a pencil here and I need something to draw with , so,
Jeremy Utley: okay.
Okay. So what do you notice there? Which, which which scenario had more creativity the second. The second one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Most people find that to be the case and, and yet it's when we got given the bad gift. And what does that teach us? A bad gift it's not bad actually. It can be great. It's, it's, there is no such thing as a bad gift.
And you could also say there's no such thing as a bad idea. It's only what you do with it. And the genius in the room. And you could say to your team, Jeff, in this, in this like alternative universe, the g ordinarily the genius is the person who can see mistakes, right? They're the person who can see why something's not gonna work.
But in this like alternative universe, the genius is the person who can see something that's amazing that nobody else can see. Possibility that no one can see, right? But all that say, like you, you get the idea. You can do simple things that, I mean, we just took five minutes of runtime out of the podcast
But you start to see, oh, I can see like, and then can you think about a time when you gave somebody something that you thought was bad that ended up being great? It's like, yeah, actually I can, right? And you start to, the problem is we have very, very. fixed rules for what work looks like and for what, you know, productive outputs look like.
And so just using simple exercises to help redefine what does a genius look like right now, you know? Mm-hmm. , what, what kind of attitude should I, should I be showing up with? And really simple things can have a demonstrably better impact, very. And then you go, well now you wanna, you wanna take a little bit longer ride with me?
You know, you wanna suspend disbelief, you know, just like you go see an Arnold Schwartzenegger movie and you suspend disbelief. What if we suspend disbelief for a couple of hours? What could we do? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get back to reality and gravity and, you know, and budgets and all that. But let's just suspend this sense of, because cuz the, the default is this deep sense of criticism and disbelief and that doesn't get us to anywhere we haven't imagined yet.
Jeff Corrigan: We love that. , it reminds me a little bit of this other concept we've can talk a lot about was 10 X goals, right? Is setting impossible goals with the same idea in mind because it forces you to, to, to think differently, to flip the script of, okay, if it's possible, then I'm not stretching, I'm not growing, I'm not, I'm not changing.
the world around me or the way that I approach the world, right? So I love that con, I love all this. That's a really fun, that's a super fun activity to do. I will do that with the team. That sounds fantastic. Well,
Jeremy Utley: and what, what you wanna demonstrate is you know, Steve Jobs would have lunch with Sir Jony every day.
You think about that killer combo. I mean, you think about Steve Jobs, nobody when they heard Steve Jobs name is going that Dofu nobody, nobody listening to this podcast. You may disagree with his management style or his personality or whatever, but you don't disagree that he was a creative genius. Right.
And you go, okay, well, he disrupted categories. He delighted many customers, he redefined industries. How did he do it? And thankfully, we actually have kind of written records of that. And Johnny Ive, you know, is a mm-hmm. quite a reliable, you know, narrator. And he said, every day Steve Jobs would say to me, Hey Johnny, you want to hear a dopey idea?
and he said most of the time his ideas were pretty dopey. In fact, sometimes they were truly terrible. But every once in a while they take the aire out of the room and leave us breakfast in wonder. Right. As only Sir Johnny I can say. But the point is, yeah, like his
Jeff Corrigan: nice voice ,
Jeremy Utley: the point is he was modeling, sharing bad ideas.
Mm-hmm. and what he knew was every once, if you create space where bad ideas are welcome, dopey ideas, as he would say, if you create that space every once in a while, there's really a the wait. But you know, that's actually not that crazy, Steve, what if we did this right? And there's real magic that unfolds because while people, you know, we've talked, you know, at length or I think the majority of this conversation has been about this question of volume.
Right. You know, how do you get more ideas? Yeah. The other thing I would say that's critical is variation. Yeah. You know, like, and why do I draw this line here? Like volumes about, you know, from like the Y axis, right? Mm-hmm. variations, the X axis. And what you're trying to do is you're trying to vary beyond the norm, right?
Like, a really great idea is like two or three or four standard deviations to the right. What's challenging is most people want an asymmetric distribution. I'm gonna lop off the whole left side. I'm only gonna have great ideas, , but that's, that's not how it works, right? Why do we do, oh good. You know, as an exercise, why do we have zany left field prompts?
Like, what would your high school best friend do? Because we know that what we need is variation. We actually wanna be pushing the standard deviation out, and you're increasing the likelihood of not only good ideas, but also really bad. . But if your goal is no bad ideas, you then you also get no good ideas.
If your goal is a small handful of really great ideas, no, you're probably gonna have about as many really stinkers too. But that's okay. Right? Dopey is the price of delightful. Yeah. And you basically get to choose, do you want a distribution that's super broad but includes really breakthrough? Or do you want a super narrow distribution of a bunch of ordinary crap that's neither delightful nor dopey?
Yeah. And those are kind of the choices you have. You get to choose which distribution you want.
Jeff Corrigan: Well, and I love that because that's the other thing that, you guys saying there that it's, I've been reminding myself is I'm a terrible judge of what a good idea is. Right? It's like, you didn't say that word verbatim, but
That's how I phrase it in my head, right? Is I, I'm like, okay, I just have. Tell myself every time I'm going into an idea session, I'm a terrible judge of what a good idea is. Right? Yeah. And so to just write it all down because that's, I love the idea of flow practice you give cuz you guys give a great tool in there for personal practice of this principle.
So to get your brain in, it's almost like an artist who sketches every morning Right. Just does a doodle Yeah. To stretch their muscles. Well this is stretching your idea muscles. Totally. Can you walk them through that really quick, like the, those steps to practicing idea flow personally every
day?
Jeremy Utley: Yeah. I mean the simple thing is recognizing it starts the night before , you know? Yeah. So we call it seed spawn and then, you know, solve But before you go to bed, I think John Steinbeck once said, there's very few problems that aren't resolved once the committee of sleep is convened . And so what you wanna do is you want to, before you go to bed, you actually want to give your subconscious a problem that you're working on.
You know, and we make the mistake of trying to be compartmentalized, right? We, we, we shut things off, right? And what we recommend is you're already gonna be tossing and turning anyway, probably. Why not consider the problem in a lighthearted way, and don't push yourself to be solving it. Just, just bring it to mind and then go to sleep.
And allow the subconscious to do what it's, you know, uniquely gifted and equipped to do, which is free associate without judgment, right? And, and then in the morning, while you're fresh, before you are, you know, diving into email or slack or text, whatever, take time to write down 10 ideas. Two, the problem that you considered the night before.
Hmm. And if you get in this habit of daily jotting down, going for volume, giving yourself kinda space, what you, you realize is you're actually kind of shortcircuiting some of the cognitive biases. Like the, like one cognitive bias that's deeply held is called the Einstulling Effect, where you fixate on one answer mm-hmm.
And the tendency of the hu of a human is to fixate on a single answer. And by, by pushing yourself to a quota to this idea quota on a daily basis, you're, you're not just affecting the time of practice. You're practice has implications in the rest of your life. Right. And it's not just about solving that problem, but about solving the cognitive bias that is the real problem.
You're trending your brain
Sheldon Mills: for variation and quantity and not fixating, like you said.
Jeremy Utley: That's right. Exactly. Exactly. You're kinda rewiring yourself. Yeah.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah, it's been a beautiful practice. I've just had so much fun with it. And the other thing that I've been applying, and it is funny cuz I think, you guys share how, hey, you can approach this in almost anything, but it really does, it can, it has given me so much confidence approaching any problem that used to bother me.
Right. Like, problems that you're just like, ah, I don't know. I, I don't know. I don't wanna solve, I don't wanna think about that. I don't wanna solve that. But when idea flow comes into play, it's so much more fun. Yeah. To look at any problem and say like, ah, well all I gotta hit this with is a bunch of solutions.
Right? It's like, , yes.
Jeremy Utley: Let's just try and again about it. And it's taking that practice mindset, you know, it's like athletes. I, I don't know if you guys played sports in high school or college, whatever, but like we all have this athletic if we've, if we've played sports, you know, I watch my little sister do it, she's a volleyball player.
You go to the grocery store, she grabs a jug of milk out of the, you know, refrigerator. You know what she. She does curls on the way back to the cart. Right. And you don't have to tell her, Hey, time to build your muscles. You know, it's like if you're an athlete, you're, you're always kinda looking for opportunities.
Well, to an innovator, you're always just, like you said Jeff, I mean you're looking for opportunity. Oh, fun. I can flex the muscle. Like this is, these, these are like gallon, you know, milk jug curls, you know? And the stuff and the stuff that used to be bothersome is just fodder for the practice.
Jeff Corrigan: That's a great example.
I loved it because like dinner time, right? We're always like debating like, what are we gonna eat for dinner? Yeah. Now I'm like, sweet guys throw out ideas. All the kids, I'm just like, ba, let's hit this thing. Right? We're , yes, we're gonna have 30 ideas. And I love it cuz it flips the approach. Cuz normally you're like, what's in the fridge?
What could we have time to make, yada yada, yada. But if you come with like, here's 30 ideas of possible dinner options, right? Then you're like, Hey, okay, now what's in the fridge right now? Like it makes a lot easier. So Cool. That's cool. It kind of fun. That's great that way. But the one question that keeps coming up as I introduce this concept to people and share 'em the book, and they're, you know, I'm sharing concepts.
I really love your mall example in there. For some reason that one stick out to me, like with the, the wine garden that they tried to build. Right, right, right. And like, what would've happened and then what actually did, because we were there to help them realize, like, thankfully, yeah, yeah, try this out first before you spend millions of dollars building out this wine garden.
But what, what people come back to me with and what can maybe you pointed at this out a second ago is, Okay, say Now I have 200, 300, you know, thousand ideas. Whatever the, the number is. They're like, how do I refine and, and. Winnow down to the ones I want to try. Right. And so, and I'm like, well, I think it's probably up to you, but I was like, I'll ask Jeremy his approach to this question, cuz I'm sure he gets this from people who listen to this listen to this concept.
Jeremy Utley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, The, the short answer is you don't want to prematurely select and you don't want to, because as you said earlier, you're a bad judge of the quality of ideas. So the, the key is like a portfolio. You wanna run several experiments in parallel mm-hmm. . So, you know, to go back to the restaurant, you know, waiting time example, what's way better than opening a merch shop in the front of a store is opening a merch shop in parallel to a GameStop in parallel to a appetizer discount program in parallel to a, you know, you know, we'll call you back in parallel to a, the longer you wait, the cheaper your meal is, right?
Like, I mean, restaurants got 200 locations. Try several things, right? And then judge them against the same criteria. Which one reduces the churn the most, right? Mm-hmm. . And so the, the approach is actually the important thing, not having the answer, but having. The, approach to discover the answer.
And so ultimately, you know, very few people can try thousands of things. . Mm-hmm. . But you can try way more than one for sure if you get experimental and scrappy and cheap and fast. So the first thing is kind of reducing the cost of an experiment, but then once you realize that, oh, an experiment can be super cheap and super fast, well then what are you trying and what are you measuring?
You know, what's your outcome variable? And for a lot of people, even just getting specific on outcome variable is enormously helpful. You know, meaning what are we, what variable are we trying to affect here? You know, if you even state that , you would get a long way there. Right. And then
Jeff Corrigan: commission, because that's coming back to your original problem of like, right.
Jeremy Utley: Yeah. How is it manifested? Yeah. You know, like, how do we know the weight is a problem? One out of every two people who hears, there's a 30 minute wait walks away and we lose their business. Mm-hmm. . Okay, great. Okay, so the outcome variable is walkaway rate. Right? And the only question is what affects the walkaway rate the most?
Right? And then, and then we, A lot of times when you do that, by the way, then that actually fuels ideation. How else could we affect the walkaway rate? Oh, we run after people in the parking lot and tell them we, you know, I mean, I don't know, right? You can figure it out, right? But the point is, commissioning a portfolio of experiments that are cheap and scrappy and fast.
And then the last thing I'd say is, what are you interested in learning about, you know, if there's no part of you whose interest is peaked or whose curiosity is peaked, as I've said before, if you don't care, don't. because there are gonna be so many obstacles and so many kind of, you know, black eyes and, you know, bloody noses on the way to actually implementing an innovation.
Mm-hmm. , if you don't actually care to see the impact or the, you know, the result, then you, you should move on from that idea. Right. . So your, your own kind of enthusiasm is a good indicator of whether you're gonna have the energy required to see something to implementation.
Jeff Corrigan: That's awesome. One of the things that I basically stole directly from the book is we've started doing a on our whiteboard in the back office of our store, right.
We run a jewelry store anyway, and we've put up prompts for the different, like a couple, two or three different things we're trying to, like, have solutions for ideas for, because in the past we've always just been like, Hey, everybody, you know, like you said earlier, like, have an idea. share your ideas with us.
Right? And it's like in accordance to what, like what, what problem are we trying to solve? Right? So now having the prompts was beautiful cuz we have a few prompts that we've selected of like, how do we you know, how might we Create a better delivery experience of our jewelry. Right? Like, how do you know?
How might we, something like that, right? Maybe that one's a little bit canned, but you get the idea. So we have a few of those that we we're running with now, , so we put those on the board and then on the Slack channel, our people will text in ideas whenever they think of something, bam, bam, bam.
And so it's been awesome though because I was like, well, we'll see how it goes. But you're giving people not only a prompt, but you're giving them permission to share ideas. Right. Which is always something we've tried to do is create like an empowering environment. And so this is, it's been, we've only been doing it for a couple of weeks, but we already have several things we're gonna try out right.
To, to me test out.
Jeremy Utley: So to me, one of the things that you should be careful of, Jeff, is like, somebody asked me the other day on a, on a other podcast, well, when are there too many ideas? And I'd say, when there's too little. . And so to me, one of the, one of the ways to pour fuel on the fire of idea flow is to commission experiments.
Like if you're the leader is like somebody posts something to Slack, say, cool, here's 50 bucks. Try it. Like they say, they say, oh, what if we brought 'em flowers with the thing? It's like for you, almost, not totally randomly, but to be like, yeah, buy the flowers, I'll reimburse you. When you get back to the office, people go, oh wait, like for real
Oh, like we're doing this. There's, there's something that happens when they go, wait, I just put an idea out there and Jeff already told me that he'll pay $18 for flowers. And then, but then, you know, so it's like, that's great. You resource it. Right. That which is like a trivial investment, you know, for a $10,000 necklace or whatever.
Right, right. Okay, , well, well now what's Jeff measuring? , well, oh, well let's talk about outcome variables. Are they, are they active on social media? Are they, do they send us a handwritten thank you card? Do they, do they recommend their best friend come by? Ju Like who? Who knows, right? But, and a lot of times you don't have to necessarily get it right, but even having that question of like, how would we know if this improved the delivery experience is a really valuable exercise, right?
And then what are the five or six things we could be monitoring? And then probably if you get your feedback loops there and you just take like that one thing as like a playground for idea flow, then what you'll find is, whoa, you know what we never would've imagined, you know, how it manifested the, I can't even come up with a, an they've offered to do an in-kind trade of their horses, you know, like I'm just was, you know, saying something totally absurd, right?
But it's like, oh, we never would've thought to measure you know, agricultural exchange. Now we should measure that, right? , the point is you got in the game of people have become aware of what are the variables we're even monitoring. Maybe the most valuable thing is something that you would never think to measure prior to the encouragement to think about measuring something, right?
Yeah. And so all that say, just like taking a chunk, like going back maybe to the beginning of the conversation as we start to wrap here, is do something. You know, and what most people are looking for is the perfect thing, the perfect project. I'm just waiting and I just need a policy and I just need a, you know what?
No, I love what you've done there of. How might we, you've put a few out and then you've, you've put the feelers out there, commission a few things, and then start the conversation about what worked. How do we know, what are we gonna try next? And you're, you're going, that's, that's what's gonna kind of grease the skids for this, start this sort of behavior.
So start to spill over into other parts of the business because the delivery experience is one thing, but like, what about the pickup experience? And then what about the supplier experience? And then what about our, you know, and all of a sudden different people who are involved in different aspects. And what about our employee experience?
Right? And you start to go, well, what's the, what's the flowers equivalent for somebody who's celebrating five years working for us? Ooh, what can we do? Right? And all of a sudden these tendrils start to kind of crawl across the organization, but it actually comes back to you as a leader, just commissioning really simple, scrappy action and then attuning the team to, is it working and what else should we be trying to work on?
Sheldon Mills: Mm-hmm. . I have one really tactical question for you, Jeremy. In this scenario that Jeff just gave out what would you do to help encourage his employees to not self filter the ideas of, because I'm, in their mind, they're only sharing the good ideas that they come up with on the Slack channel, right?
Jeremy Utley: Yeah. Well, I mean, just actually ask for stupid ideas.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah, it was really easy. It was the rules. You're like, the rules are good, bad, ugly, right? Like , we want 'em all. Yeah. It's
Jeremy Utley: gotta be a, yeah. Like what would we do if you had a million dollars? Or give different constraints, right? What would you do if you had unlimited budget?
What's a really, what should we not do? What would ru or, or you could like, like the cognitive bias, flip it around what would totally ruin the delivery experience. , right. And so you can kind of play some games there, but it, but I, I, I think that, that's a very astute question, Sheldon, that what you don't want is people filtering too much.
And so what you do want is you want the, you want to be clear. What we're looking for is not good ideas. It's all ideas. You know, one way you can scrum it is like you require everybody's gotta have 10 and at. And you got, and maybe you have like a stupid, like a wacky quota. At least 30% of the ideas have to be totally wacky and somebody is punished if they don't come up with 10, or if at least three aren't wacky.
Right? And then what you can do is you can have a game where like everybody's gotta grab somebody else's wacky idea and actually make it awesome, and then all of a sudden you show, wow, we never would've thought of the awesome thing if we, if Sheldon hadn't taken Jeff's wacky idea and made it great, what's the value of the wacky idea?
It led us to the awesome thing that we never would've thought of. Right. Oh,
Sheldon Mills: that's great. I'll do this with it. . Exactly.
Jeremy Utley: Pencil. Exactly.
Jeff Corrigan: Well, this is just invaluable, honestly. So great. And I love seeing your approach to even the, the things that I've been trying to implement has been really helpful because I, you just do this a lot, right?
So it's like, man, you got a lot of this, your mind's working in that realm and it's super helpful.
Jeremy Utley: Well, I'd be happy to. I mean, I'll be eager to hear Jeff, if you like, here, here's what I would say, the ticket to the next conversation. I, I was on a podcast the other day. He goes, we gotta talk again. . Yeah.
Okay. Well what's, what's the ticket to me like? Not that you're asking to talk again or anything, but I am. Yeah, definitely. The tickets to the next conversation is I want to hear what are three things the team tries to improve the delivery experience and like what was the worst, what was the best and why?
And if you have those things, I would be delighted. I mean, like we, obviously we just have a phone call. We could do another podcast or whatever, but to me it's actually, or maybe we have a call with your team. Right. I'm happy to talk to your team as well. That'd be super fun. But to me, I'm, I am personally, I mean, just like to speak personally too, I am incredibly motivated by people who are wanting to work differently, you know, and people who are wanting to implement this stuff.
It's like that to me. It's like that's, that's my addiction is actually working with people who go, no, no, I wanna work differently. It's like, great, well I wanna work with you
Jeff Corrigan: that well, that's what we want. So . Yeah. Yeah. That's always what I want. I'm always like, how could we do this differently? It's gotta be a better way, , it's
Jeremy Utley: my life.
That's great. That's great. That sense of like, of, of, you know, low grade annoyance or frustration is a great indicator that there's an opportunity for innovation. ,
Jeff Corrigan: well in the whole jewelry industry. So I've been in it now nine, eight years, eight years. My brother brought me in cuz we were doing a bunch of other stuff on the side and he is like, yeah, I, I'm taking over the business.
I want a business partner. Jumped in. Hmm. And I found my space there, which is to just try and innovate and make this space better than it is because it's all antiquated. Right. It's a very old industry. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I shouldn't say very old. It's an older industry and it's just stuck in a rut. It's got, I mean, they, they're, they're living on the same model Right. For the last 150 years, so. Wow. It's, it's something that I think has a lot of room for innovation and growth possibilities. So, yeah. It's
Jeremy Utley: pretty fun.
Yeah. That's cool. Well, I look forward to hearing what you implement and if I can be of service or assist in any way, please.
Jeff Corrigan: That would be fantastic. Thank you. Appreciate so much, Jeremy. It's been a pleasure. Yeah,
Jeremy Utley: likewise guys.
Jeff Corrigan: Cool. All right. Thanks Jeremy. Be good, y'all. Okay. Have a great day. You too. Bye.
Sheldon Mills: Thank you for listening. This is an awesome episode with Jeremy Utley. Jeff's been talking about this for a while, right?
But, after talking with Jeremy, like this has been on my list of books to get to, it's now gonna get to the, actually listen to portion of violin . Ah, that was really good. Thank you for listening. And as always, you can go show notes if you need links to his book, anything like that. And, again, please leave us a review ,
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah, don't forget about Magic Monday, guys. Magic Monday. Yes. I've got a new email, we're sending out every week and we want to help you launch your week with some magic. It's called Magic Monday . It's literally a one to two minute read. All of our family has subscribed to it.
friends, neighbors.
Sheldon Mills: I have a, I have a sister that's now subscribed, not just
Jeff Corrigan: my mom. Yeah. So we want you next to jump on so far it's been really fun writing it. It's short. You're gonna love it. Kick off your week with some, Monday Motivation. It's kinda like that. Yeah. It's gonna
Sheldon Mills: show up in your inbox.
Not Monday morning, but kind of like Monday, right before lunches, after you've kind of like delusion the inbox and you know the the new things you have to do for the day kind of settled through that and you're like, okay, I need a little bit of
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Fridays are already great. We wanted to add a llittle magic to MOnday. That's true . We think you're gonna enjoy it. Go subscribe. We also give you 20% off our course. If you subscribe, just follow the show notes or go to our website, habitmasters.com. It's on the front page. You guys are great. Thanks so much.
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Sheldon Mills: Amen brother Ben.
